Vancouver Forum: Another swine flu thread

Ah what the heck.. lets have another.. here's an interesting interview with a doctor on CBC news - who pretty much says everything i've been saying (but i'm no doctor)


http://www.cbc.ca/ca...nt-cassels.html


Some choice quotes:

Quote

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wow, rationality regarding h1n1 is hard to come by these days... good find.
also, i wonder how many people are actually getting sick by standing in those long, tight lines, probably among many infected people.

Dark Canuck, on 03 November 2009 - 02:42 PM, said:

This is why i avoid going to the doctor if possible...

And if i do - you wont catch me reading any of the reading material in the waiting room

smelly, on 03 November 2009 - 12:50 PM, said:

Um smelly, Alan Cassels is a drug policy researcher. He's not a doctor.

In contrast smelly, Dr. David Butler-Jones (<-- actually a doctor), Canada's Chief Public Health Officer who heads the Public Health Agency of Canada, recommends getting the vaccine.

Here's his bio:

Dr. Butler-Jones has taught at both the undergraduate and graduate levels and has been involved as a researcher in a broad range of public health issues. He is a Professor in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Manitoba as well as a Clinical Professor with the Department of Community Health and Epidemiology at the University of Saskatchewan's College of Medicine.

From 1995 to 2002, Dr. Butler-Jones was Chief Medical Health Officer and Executive Director of the Population Health and Primary Health Services Branches for the Province of Saskatchewan.

Dr. Butler-Jones has served with a number of organizations including as: President of the Canadian Public Health Association; Vice President of the American Public Health Association; Chair of the Canadian Roundtable on Health and Climate Change; International Regent on the board of the American College of Preventive Medicine; Member of the Governing Council for the Canadian Population Health Initiative; Chair of the National Coalition on Enhancing Preventive Practices of Health Professionals; and Co-Chair of the Canadian Coalition for Public Health in the 21st Century.

He has worked in many parts of Canada in both Public Health and Clinical Medicine, and has consulted in a number of other countries.

I understand there is a lot of conflicting information going around out there, but check the sources people! You may think you are getting information from a doctor or a medical expert but upon inspection, that isn't the case. I am sorry, but I just don't weight the opinions of journalists, policy researchers and nameless/faceless voices on youtube with the same level of credibility as I do actual doctors and medical professionals. If you want to make a decent case for not getting vaccinated, please make the attempt to put up the opinion of someone who can at least pass the "expert" muster.

RealWoman, on 03 November 2009 - 04:30 PM, said:

haha!!

total pwnage.

schmoozer, on 03 November 2009 - 03:52 PM, said:

http://gulligbulle.f..._gum_front1.jpg

david o, on 03 November 2009 - 05:04 PM, said:

..so you have a few cases of that stored away huh? good for you...

?

RealWoman, on 03 November 2009 - 03:30 PM, said:

doesn't make him any less correct though

Dark Canuck, on 03 November 2009 - 05:18 PM, said:

true, however there are always a small vocal minority against all vaccinations. They say there's a link to autism, or mercury, etc etc.....

I seriously think the potential advantages of getting this shot outweigh the very remote risks.

Did you hear today that most schools in Kitimat are closed after absentee rates of up to 50% due to flu?
This doesn't sound like your "normal" seasonal flu to me anymore...

Dark Canuck, on 03 November 2009 - 04:18 PM, said:

I chalk most of what non-medical professionals say up to the old addage: "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one."

If you read the story - he doesnt say "dont get the shot" in fact he says that statistically there's no harm either way..

There's a chance if you dont take the shot you'd get ill
There's a chance if you do take the shot you'd get ill


All he's saying is common sense stuff about not panicking about it

smelly, on 03 November 2009 - 05:41 PM, said:

See, I go to my doctor for this kind of information.

RealWoman, on 03 November 2009 - 05:52 PM, said:

I wouldnt.. that'd mean sitting in a doctors waiting room with all those germs.. eww!

schmoozer, on 03 November 2009 - 05:24 PM, said:

that doesn't mean the flu is worse tho... just that people are educated enough to not send their sick kid to school, which is generally the case.

btw, i am against vaccination, not because of autism or anything like that, but just because getting colds and flus and most other less-harmful infections is good for you (provided you are capable of recovering).

smelly, on 03 November 2009 - 05:58 PM, said:

mine calls me if I leave her a message...

Dark Canuck, on 03 November 2009 - 06:06 PM, said:

how about smallpox, polio etc.. have you had those?

schmoozer, on 03 November 2009 - 06:09 PM, said:

LOL! See when you're not trying to do simple math - you're actually intelligent

schmoozer, on 03 November 2009 - 06:09 PM, said:

i'm in my 30s so i was vaccinated against them, but haven't had any boosters. my daughter hasn't been vaccinated for anything tho and has laughed off every childhood disease she's encountered. i just keep her healthy. pretty sure we're going through h1n1 right now and she's just enjoying a few days off school.

Dark Canuck, on 03 November 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

How many childhood diseases do you not have to worry about your child getting now due to mass vaccination?

Polio was the most dreaded childhood disease in the 20th century until the vaccine came along and it's now all but eradicated from the western hemisphere.

Smallpox is another disease pretty much eradicated from the world. Prior to vaccination, up to 30 percent of those infected died.

How about Rubella? Rubella infections during pregnancy were estimated to have caused 30,000 still births and 20,000 children to be born impaired or disabled over a 3 year span.

Not getting your child vaccinated is your prerogative but keep in mind, your kid isn't going to get a lot of these horrible diseases because mass vaccination has all but eradicated them.

RealWoman, on 03 November 2009 - 08:08 PM, said:

well, when you throw around statistics, you gotta take in mind the period. i mean, nutrition, health, hygiene and medical knowledge weren't what they are now when polio and small pox were an issue in north america. in fact, according to the data of the time, you could argue that improved hygiene had more to do with mitigating polio complications than the vaccine.

also, when she was 3 she she fought off rubella (and it didn't even slow her down i might add), so now she's got better long-term protection from it than the majority of society.

Dark Canuck, on 03 November 2009 - 10:11 PM, said:

Well at least she got it young as opposed to later in life.

Big money maker for MDs
Thanks to Global TV

Dark Canuck, on 03 November 2009 - 10:11 PM, said:

Last case of polio in the US was 1992. I hadn't realised hygiene standards have come so far since then.

RealWoman, on 03 November 2009 - 11:59 PM, said:

what was the mortality rate of this 1992 OUTBREAK?

Dark Canuck, on 04 November 2009 - 12:23 AM, said:

Single case in the US in 1992. Last big one I believe was in the 40's and 50's. Between 1960 and 1965, when vaccination took effect, they saw a 97% drop in polio cases. By 1980-1990, it averaged 8 cases a year. Now? Nadda. Given that information, are you are sure you want to just chalk it up to good hygiene? (I am going to throw out the nutrition bit because we eat worse now than we have previously.)

Yes, smallpox was eradicated due to vaccine development! But there is ONLY one strand of smallpox infects humans, so you bacially need to get the smallpox vaccine once (in your lifetime). On the other hand, there are many strands of Influenza.... thats why some high rish groups are encouraged to get flu shots every year, because influenza are all different every year. IMO, you can't even compare the risk factors of all the influenza vaccines VS. one smallpox vac.

One of the problems I have with H1N1 flu vaccine is how it was rush to make it to the public and how the gov and the media pushing it on us without telling us everything. Do you know that once a new drug/vaccine goes public, it is still in the TESTING phase. Drugs are tested all along the development phase. Starting on animals, then limited trials on human volunteers, then larger markets and finally Health Canada approval for the general public. Many people think that once Health Canada has approved a new drug, then its safe! Absolutely false! The final step is to test on millions of people, this is the so called make or break step for a new drug, Many drugs do very well in smaller markets, its when the general public with all it's genetic differences, auto-immume dieases, underlying medical conditions etc, get it that its subject to the "real" test. This accounts for why some drugs are taken back off the market once they go public. Health Canada website has a place that you can report any adverse events related to the use of drugs, vaccines and other health products, because previous findings have shown that in the large population, "things" starts to happen, and it wasn't as safe as they thought. Not always..

Case in point: Have any of you heard about the 14 years old girl from the UK dies after given the cervical cancer vaccine? There are now over 2000 girls reportly "damaged" because of the vaccine.
My link

Another problem I have with this H1N1 vaccine is that Health Canada have granted immunity to drug companies, in case any adverse reactions occur. what is wrong with this picture!??? If the vaccine is so great and effective, why do the drug companies need legal immunity?

People, the H1N1 shot is no different than the regular flu shot.

Refraining from common sense measures such as innoculations for serious diseases is not the responsible thing for a parent to do. There is no way that playing Russian Roulette with your kids can be considered a wise option, even though the it's a personal decision.

razzmatazz, on 04 November 2009 - 02:41 AM, said:

erm.. yes it is.

smelly, on 04 November 2009 - 07:23 AM, said:

How so?

How is this one different from the H5N1 vaccine (other than the strain of course)? That one was well tested and adjuvanted as well. Please explain.

RealWoman, on 03 November 2009 - 03:48 PM, said:

since the UN's Charter/WHO circa 2005. Governments are over ruled [that includes ministers] when a level 6/pandemic is called. de facto David Butler -Jones then becomes the spokesman for WHO interests. Fascinating isn't it. Trust your government/not in this case! get with the
programme folks. A state of emergency may lead to martial law initiated by the WHO/Margaret Chan, peeps.

RealWoman, on 04 November 2009 - 12:45 AM, said:

well being that polio is transmitted from feces to mouth, YES hygiene played a HUGE roll. all you have to do is convince a population to wash its hands before preparing dinner and BAM you've nearly killed the disease. if you've done research on the subject, i'm sure you've seen the graphs indicating that polio rates in the 50s were on a downward trajectory before vaccines were developed. if you've evidence to contradict those graphs, lay it on me.

btw, i do not believe 'we' eat worse now than in the 40s-50s (with obvious exceptions). my mom grew up on one of those romantic albertan farms where they butchered an organic free-range turkey for christmas dinner and pickled their own pig feet... but she also went without fresh fruits or veggies for 5 months of the year.

DocWatson, on 04 November 2009 - 09:18 AM, said:

Dr. Chan. Dr. Butler-Jones. ... I am starting to see a theme here. Oh wait! I know! They are medically trained. Doc, just come up with something better than conspiracy theories from journalists and talking clocks because so far, your sources are out educated.